Curse

Ubiquitous · Aug 16, 2005, 11:21 PM // 23:21

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Originally Posted by Ender Ward

Hmm, don't really like that W/N Hammer build.
The necro subclass is useful in random/team arena, but with Martyr in a Tombs/GvG team it becomes redundant. The subclass on a Hammer W/X should be used to enhance damage significantly, or atleast improve survivability if you're being targeted alot for some reason (and can't frenzy).

Yes, and the only damage enhancements are energy-based. Which means that in all the areas I've been referencing (and the areas that you conveniently ignore), the damage enhancement is spotty at best, useless at worst. And you've given up your ability to generate adrenaline much more quickly.

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And no, I ain't posting my own Hammer build. Figure it out yourselves, or keep on using R/W. Don't really have a burning need to convince anyone of anything anymore. Past experience so far shows that if logical arguments and conclusions gained from experience convince anyone at all, those people never post. Those that do continue posting, repeating the same arguments all over again, are the ones with fanatical devotion to their playstyle, who's minds you ain't gonna change, ever.

This is a cop out. We aren't afraid for our builds to be posted, because hiding your "uber secret" build doesn't advance the metagame at all. Open communication makes the PvP experience all the better, since people can learn without necessarily having to unlock everything. You can also build on other's ideas instead of trying to jealously keep them to yourselves.

Additionally, the "I'm not gonna tell you my response" is a classic example of being unable to respond to the arguments presented, particularly when coupled with your failure to do so. Even without posting a build, I made specific, warranted claims that you ignored in your overly general and information-less post.

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I also came up with and tested a decent R/W Hammer build that works alright. Not quite as good as a W/X for disruption or damage, but not too bad after all. Not good enough for me to bring to a GvG or Tombs game though. More like random/team Arena fodder.

Not important to the discussion unless you've got an answer to why the arguments I've made don't show how a R/W is imminently useful in GvG.

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Ofcourse based on our experiences in the tombs last night, I'm compelled to say that both hammer using W/X and R/W are really sub par, compared to ... uh, other options available. And I don't really see us using Hammer builds again anytime soon. But that's Tombs only. That environment is unique. Outside of Tombs, old rules stil apply.

Again, this is a non-answer. If you want to act like you have privileged knowledge, that's fine. I, for one, don't believe a word of it. But if it's necessary for you to feel like you're winning the argument, go right ahead. The rest of us will try and get the metagame moving forward.

Ubi

Wilymo · Aug 16, 2005, 11:26 PM // 23:26

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Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Hammer 16
Strength 13

Frenzy
Sprint
Irresistable Blow
Crushing Blow
Devasating Hammer
Heavy Blow
Plague Touch
Res Sig

Plague Touch is debatable. There are 100 different versions, most of them using aftershock instead. I just modded this guy to be a bit better for GvG.

While this build is not better in EVERY facet of combat, it is better in the most imprtant one: the spike. He is not meant to go in there wasting all his energy by spamming IB left and right. He saves for abit and unleashes his 400+ damage 5-6 second perma-knockdown combo.

While you may say "ha! that means that R/W is good for something" I say that what the R/W good for, total DPS, is surpassed by miles by bow rangers and axe warriors. The only purpose I can see for them then is to be a really sketchy hybrid.

Your wrong. Any warrior that uses frenzy will get owned. Have you ever played in tombs dude? It sounds like im trying to talk to someone that doesnt even get out from his TA/CoMp shell. Sure, in TA/Comp you will be safe to use your little frenzy combo. However, once you step into the place where the big boys play (HoH/GvG) Then you wont be able to use frenzy. Heres WHy : Putrid EXplosion, Smite Builds, Minion Master buids, and not to mention, that you will take double damage from the AOE spells casted. Oh and, if you try to use taht little frenzy thing agaisnt my guild....it wont work. We have an awesome warrior shutdown/ele shutdown that spams it if someone is using frenzy.

Nalukai · Aug 16, 2005, 11:34 PM // 23:34

shinobi i agree ( the car of coarse) the placement of the engine towards mid chassis is where it gains it advantage wieght wise while achieving a less roll factor .. cuz think of it in this way... if you are top heavy and turn your gonna lose traction from the rear and flip however better displacement of wieght plus a wider wheel base= domination on curves

edit: ironic i have used the same name on jedi academy n diablo 2 for total of 4 years... :P such a great name.. forest devil :P

Neo-LD · Aug 17, 2005, 12:06 AM // 00:06

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Originally Posted by Wilymo

Your wrong. Any warrior that uses frenzy will get owned. Have you ever played in tombs dude? It sounds like im trying to talk to someone that doesnt even get out from his TA/CoMp shell. Sure, in TA/Comp you will be safe to use your little frenzy combo. However, once you step into the place where the big boys play (HoH/GvG) Then you wont be able to use frenzy. Heres WHy : Putrid EXplosion, Smite Builds, Minion Master buids, and not to mention, that you will take double damage from the AOE spells casted. Oh and, if you try to use taht little frenzy thing agaisnt my guild....it wont work. We have an awesome warrior shutdown/ele shutdown that spams it if someone is using frenzy.

Unless you are a complete dumbass you cant really get killed by frenzy. Use it when you arent attackedd, DO NOT use it on the altar, and use sprint to cancel it if you are being ganked.

A variant hammer build which I have never tried but saw my friend use (to great effect)

Like I said Plague Touch is debatable. Swap it for mighty blow and you'll probably do as good or better. Or if you really want a good hammer build, talk to charles ensign. Dunno how he does it, but his hamemr war kicks ass (been tryiing to figure out what he does different lol) Hope he posts here soon. He probably stopped reading this flamefest a while ago though.

A couple of replies to other people in this thread, at no point did I endorse FGJ on a war, that was ender and bast. For me it takes to long to recharge and isnt worth the 10 energy. Also, while energy drain can severely cripple a warrior, it can do almost the same to a ranger. 1 drain and bang, 16 energy gone. For a ranger, magically losing 16 energy is closer to losing 32, since every point lost could have been used twice over due to expertise.

S H I N O B I · Aug 17, 2005, 12:29 AM // 00:29

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Originally Posted by Neo-LD

For a ranger, magically losing 16 energy is closer to losing 32, since every point lost could have been used twice over due to expertise.

?? You're making it sound worse than it actually is... R/Ws have expertise and 1 more pip of regen to deal with it so its not much of a concern... W/xs still have it worse in that situation.

btw, have you read Ubi's recent posts yet? Just wondering... ^.^

ICURADik · Aug 17, 2005, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Your not thinking logically. It's tough to keep a ranger from using skills thru energy denial when the skills all cost 2-4 energy. Even from 0 energy you can use a 10 energy skill in 4 seconds. A warrior takes 15 seconds to get enough energy.

Ender Ward · Aug 17, 2005, 12:34 AM // 00:34

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Originally Posted by Neo-LD

A couple of replies to other people in this thread, at no point did I endorse FGJ on a war, that was ender and bast.

No. I stated it was nice, but ultimately unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Ubiquitous

Yes, and the only damage enhancements are energy-based. Which means that in all the areas I've been referencing (and the areas that you conveniently ignore), the damage enhancement is spotty at best, useless at worst. And you've given up your ability to generate adrenaline much more quickly.

Actually there's just one damage enhancer (really) worth it's salt. And it only needs to be used once per target.

Gaining adrenaline faster is unneeded. As long as you can gain 7 adrenaline in a reasonable amount of time, and have it ready when a window of opportunity opens up for you to be at full effectiveness, that is sufficient. You then gank a caster solo in the space of several seconds (with proper support from the rest of the team), and your purpose is fullfilled. Others on your team do the same simultaneously while conditions are favourable.
If a character (whether it's W/X or R/W) cannot disrupt/kill a target quickly, the character will be replaced with one that can. But I already explained all of this pages back ...

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This is a cop out. We aren't afraid for our builds to be posted, because hiding your "uber secret" build doesn't advance the metagame at all. Open communication makes the PvP experience all the better, since people can learn without necessarily having to unlock everything. You can also build on other's ideas instead of trying to jealously keep them to yourselves.

Mmm, I find myself not caring. Sorry.

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Additionally, the "I'm not gonna tell you my response" is a classic example of being unable to respond to the arguments presented, particularly when coupled with your failure to do so. Even without posting a build, I made specific, warranted claims that you ignored in your overly general and information-less post.

Nice try, I'm not biting.

Scroll a few pages back for posts full of information and detail. Why should I bother repeating them yet again? My first post is on page 5, #124. This post of yours that I am replying to is on page 10, #241. Do you really think I'll invest the effort to repeat the points made in that interval merely for your benefit?

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Not important to the discussion unless you've got an answer to why the arguments I've made don't show how a R/W is imminently useful in GvG.

I already explained, several times, pages back, why a hammer R/W is not a good use of a character either in Tombs or GvG. Don't feel like repeating myself. If you are late to the conversation, perhaps you'd be so kind as to catch up on what went on before you joined the thread?

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Again, this is a non-answer. If you want to act like you have privileged knowledge, that's fine. I, for one, don't believe a word of it. But if it's necessary for you to feel like you're winning the argument, go right ahead. The rest of us will try and get the metagame moving forward.

If people want answers handed to them on a silver platter, I won't be the one to give 'em. My statement was intended to make people think about and discover the much, much more effective options than hammer using W/X or R/W in the current metagame.

And if in the future somebody comes up with an even better option, I wouldn't want them telling me outright. I'd want my guild to discover it ourselves. That's half the fun of the game.

Tuna · Aug 17, 2005, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Currently tombs is a pretty bad example for build balance such as r/w vs w/r for the reasons someone pointed out: putrid, nr, and smiting. If you stick all the most unbalanced builds in one place it makes a bad environment to test other builds.

Also, I'm pretty much pro-secrecy when it comes to GW builds but frankly giving the layout for one character doesn't hurt you at all. Its more of a problem (argueably) if you decide to give your entire 8 man build. So yeah, not posting it is a cop out. Same thing goes for these elusive anti-nr builds.

Ubiquitous · Aug 17, 2005, 01:20 AM // 01:20

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Originally Posted by Ender Ward

No. I stated it was nice, but ultimately unnecessary.

Nice, and unusable on a warrior primary. Nice, and completely viable on a R/W.

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Actually there's just one damage enhancer (really) worth it's salt. And it only needs to be used once per target.

And as I stated, your energy requiring damage enhancers don't get played out when you have to use them and frenzy (or another speed enhancement), because with QZ down, you don't have enough energy.

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Gaining adrenaline faster is unneeded. As long as you can gain 7 adrenaline in a reasonable amount of time, and have it ready when a window of opportunity opens up for you to be at full effectiveness, that is sufficient. You then gank a caster solo in the space of several seconds (with proper support from the rest of the team), and your purpose is fullfilled. Others on your team do the same simultaneously while conditions are favourable.
If a character (whether it's W/X or R/W) cannot disrupt/kill a target quickly, the character will be replaced with one that can. But I already explained all of this pages back ...

And I read your posts and found them, as these recent ones, singularly uninformative. I'm not looking for your answers to these questions, because quite frankly, I think you're dead wrong. My point is that being cryptic and vague and then saying you've got the answer, but you don't want to tell it cause it's secret is, as others agree, a cop out. It's an attempt to hide a deficiency in analysis. You don't care? Fine. I'm not particularly concerned about it either. It's mildly entertaining, but certainly not upsetting to me.

Additionally, the "proper support" from your team is, yet again, a vague and meaningless description. Do you mean that the rest of your team is spiking another target? Whoopedy-do...you're back to this silly 1v1 idea. This is a prime example of why your examples tend to be vapid. You make a vague claim and act as if it means something.

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Mmm, I find myself not caring. Sorry.

Don't be sorry. Just don't be surprised when people don't think you have anything to contribute. If that doesn't bother you, great. But that begs the question of why you're posting...

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Nice try, I'm not biting.

No one wants you to bite. All I've suggested is that you actually post something constructive to the thread instead of "oh, I know the answer but I'm keeping it secret".

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Scroll a few pages back for posts full of information and detail. Why should I bother repeating them yet again? My first post is on page 5, #124. This post of yours that I am replying to is on page 10, #241. Do you really think I'll invest the effort to repeat the points made in that interval merely for your benefit?

Again, I read your "points". Nothing you said in any that I saw had much at all to do with what I said, and they certainly didn't deal with the specifics and context that I brought up. I honestly don't care if you invest the time or not. But I have no qualms about pointing out how you're wrong if you don't want to invest the time to make an actual argument.

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I already explained, several times, pages back, why a hammer R/W is not a good use of a character either in Tombs or GvG. Don't feel like repeating myself. If you are late to the conversation, perhaps you'd be so kind as to catch up on what went on before you joined the thread?

Argument by repetition? You've made this same claim 3 times now. It still doesn't have any bearing on the recent turn of conversation. Try again?

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If people want answers handed to them on a silver platter, I won't be the one to give 'em. My statement was intended to make people think about and discover the much, much more effective options than hammer using W/X or R/W in the current metagame.

Yes, yes. We know you've got the answer...you just don't want to share it, for fear of...? Some ineffable thing, undoubtedly.

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And if in the future somebody comes up with an even better option, I wouldn't want them telling me outright. I'd want my guild to discover it ourselves. That's half the fun of the game.

Well, then please make sure not to watch our videos. Or read any other posts about people talking about strategies. In fact, why are you even on these forums if you aren't interested in what others have to say?

Ubi

Ender Ward · Aug 17, 2005, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ubiquitous

Nice, and unusable on a warrior primary. Nice, and completely viable on a R/W.

Perfectly usable on a Warrior primary every 45 seconds normally or every 23 seconds under QZ. But, for the third time completely unnecessary to a Hammer Warrior.

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And as I stated, your energy requiring damage enhancers don't get played out when you have to use them and frenzy (or another speed enhancement), because with QZ down, you don't have enough energy.

Judge's Insight is perfectly usable under QZ. Assuming you don't spam it and used when it's actually needed. What the hell are you doing with your energy as a Warrior that you can't find 13 energy out of 25 about once every 30 seconds?

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And I read your posts and found them, as these recent ones, singularly uninformative.

You haven't read them then. I give specific answers to why sustainability on melee characters is irrelevant and why incapacitating spike is what you need from a Hammer user.
I'll repeat it for what is probably the 5th time now. It's easier to set up conditions favouring melee attackers for 6-7 seconds than it is to keep these conditions up for minutes at a time, so that R/W's sustainability gets a chance to shine.
How many times can I state that the only use for a Hammer warrior is incapacitation and killing in a very small period of time? How many more times can I state that if what one is looking for is sustained, less easily countered damage in a war of attrition, then a hammer R/W is far from the best choice. That, for example, a far less easily countered bow ranger will do much better. How many more times do I have to state that if you're attempting to do "disruption over time" then you're better with a Choking Gas/Practiced Stance ranger instead of a Hammer R/W? Etc, Etc etc.

You haven't read my posts, because I have to repeat this.

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I'm not looking for your answers to these questions, because quite frankly, I think you're dead wrong.

Dead wrong in what? You haven't addressed any of the points I made pages back. You just came into the thread, and repeated the same arguments that were already debunked pages back.

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My point is that being cryptic and vague and then saying you've got the answer, but you don't want to tell it cause it's secret is, as others agree, a cop out. It's an attempt to hide a deficiency in analysis. You don't care? Fine. I'm not particularly concerned about it either. It's mildly entertaining, but certainly not upsetting to me.

Cryptic? What's so cryptic about a hammer build with Judges Insight? Such a build is bloody obvious. I shouldn't have to post it up.

What's cryptic about using Nature's Renewal to break through enchantment stacks before unloading multiple adrenaline chains? What's so cryptic about using Necro secondaries to breaks through Aegis/Guardian. Do I have to actually spell out "R I G O U R M O R T I S"?

Do I seriously have to explain massive Energy denial from both Monks and Mesmer on one's team, to prevent casting of Protective Spirits and Aegis outright? Do I really have to explain that you unload your chains from multiple characters when OpFor is already starved for energy and you just shattered all of their existing enchants with NR?

I shouldn't have to give details because these things should be obvious to anyone doing GvG and Tombs.

Seriosuly, go back and read the previous pages. I already spent way more time than I liked explaining what shouldn't need to be.

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Yes, yes. We know you've got the answer...you just don't want to share it, for fear of...? Some ineffable thing, undoubtedly.

For the obvious fear of getting countered. If I post it here, people will be watching for it, having brought the necessary counters. Nothing in the game is uncounterable, so why show your cards on an open forum? I'd rather continue to enjoy increased effectiveness in future Tombs fights for atleast a few weeks, before it becomes obvious. Is it selfish? Probably, yet I don't care. We only came to this realisation a day ago, for pete's sake. Why the hell would I mention it already?

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Well, then please make sure not to watch our videos.

Haven't seen a minute of them, nor intend to in the future.

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Or read any other posts about people talking about strategies. In fact, why are you even on these forums if you aren't interested in what others have to say?

I'm posting because there are some builds, strategies and ideas I am willing to share. And I've done so, in this thread and others.

And why wouldn't I try to learn from others? Half of our builds came from taking other people's ideas and tweaking them for our own use/better effectiveness. That's the other half of the fun of the game. No, Im not contradicting myself, because it's not about being handed strategies on a silver platter, but about seing a glimpse of a brilliant idea and taking it to the next level.

Even my "uber secret" Hammer Warrior build (come on, it's a W/Mo with Judge's Insight that needs 7 adrenaline to start a chain, should be bloody obvious) grew out of another person's build from the BWEs.

Hell what we discovered yesterday is a combination of two widely known strategies. Perhaps even used by somebody out there, I just never saw anyone post about using them together. In time I'll post it too. Or perhaps IQ people will post about it way before we do (I wouldn't be surprised if they already do it themselves). But right now, I ain't ready to talk yet.

If that invalidates the rest of the extensive posts I made on the subject of Hammer W/X and how they compare to hammer R/W, or all the posts I've made about QS and Melandru's Rangers, so be it. I'm beyond caring. And I should never have started posting in this thread again. As it's a giant waste of time. So I'm bowing out again, this time for good.

MuKen · Aug 17, 2005, 02:26 AM // 02:26

The whole point of the build-posting discussion was to start the debate on an analysis of discrete points, instead of generalizations like "there's going to be energy denial and that's bad for you". If you don't like it and aren't willing to participate in this kind of discussion, then don't respond to the posts that are about the builds, please. Right now you're not doing anything but derailing the conversation.

Tuna · Aug 17, 2005, 02:50 AM // 02:50

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Hell what we discovered yesterday is a combination of two widely known strategies. Perhaps even used by somebody out there, I just never saw anyone post about using them together. In time I'll post it too. Or perhaps IQ people will post about it way before we do (I wouldn't be surprised if they already do it themselves). But right now, I ain't ready to talk yet.

HOLY SWEET MOTHER OF GOD! Is this even legal!?! Combining strategies... this man has done the unspeakable. So unspeakable in fact, that he can't even tell the 5 1/2 people that read this forum in fear of being countered. I don't usually use internet abreviations but: ROFLMAO.

I think this thread has deduced a few main things:

1: NR nerfs enchantments and hexes that may or may not be used to help warriors
2: If you are in an extremely anti-warrior environemnt, don't bring a warrior
3. If you are in an extremely anti-warrior environemnt you may not want to bring a ranger either

Ubiquitous · Aug 17, 2005, 03:23 AM // 03:23

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Originally Posted by Ender Ward

Perfectly usable on a Warrior primary every 45 seconds normally or every 23 seconds under QZ. But, for the third time completely unnecessary to a Hammer Warrior.

Couple your 13 energy with a 7 energy stance and you've got less than 3 energy to play with. Unless you want your hits coming so slowly that there's plenty of time to drop a prot spirit on the target, even assuming you can completely energy deny all the monks on the other team. Additionally, a single energy drain (as I've specifically mentioned) from a savvy monk and/or the removal of the "R I G O U R M O R T I S" within the first few seconds of your chain and your "spike" is wasted. Which means that any team worth its salt will easily deny you the one potential upside to your warrior - and that's why the sustained R/W damage and the ability to reuse the damage/knockdown train more often makes it the superior option.

Whether its unnecessary for your hypothetical situation to occur, it still counts as a bonus for the R/W, since that character CAN keep it up all the time without a problem - the additional utility of being able to keep Tiger's Fury constantly and the use of Irresisitible Blow to not rely on hexes that stay up almost not at all against a good team is easily more advantage to the R/W than your explanation of the warrior's spike can hope to compete with.

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Judge's Insight is perfectly usable under QZ. Assuming you don't spam it and used when it's actually needed. What the hell are you doing with your energy as a Warrior that you can't find 13 energy out of 25 about once every 30 seconds?

This has been answered above. If FGJ isn't usable against a good team because of energy issues, JI will certainly also be as ineffective, because coupled with the energy issues is the fact that enchant removal in a NR+Drain Enchantment environment means you've got almost no ability to keep it up long enough for your damage train to be effective.

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You haven't read them then. I give specific answers to why sustainability on melee characters is irrelevant and why incapacitating spike is what you need from a Hammer user.

You're the one not reading my answers. Energy denial > your warrior's damage train, particularly when it's coming from the monks, because it doubles up and allows them to outheal your damage.

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I'll repeat it for what is probably the 5th time now. It's easier to set up conditions favouring melee attackers for 6-7 seconds than it is to keep these conditions up for minutes at a time, so that R/W's sustainability gets a chance to shine.

Sustained damage is what overloads the ability for 2-3 monks to handle damage, unless the damage is over the top. Your 3-4 attack (whether the speed buff is up or not) is insufficient to kill a target, particularly if your rigor/judge's/warrior's cunning isn't up for more than 7-8 seconds.

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How many times can I state that the only use for a Hammer warrior is incapacitation and killing in a very small period of time? How many more times can I state that if what one is looking for is sustained, less easily countered damage in a war of attrition, then a hammer R/W is far from the best choice. That, for example, a far less easily countered bow ranger will do much better. How many more times do I have to state that if you're attempting to do "disruption over time" then you're better with a Choking Gas/Practiced Stance ranger instead of a Hammer R/W? Etc, Etc etc.

6-7 seconds is an eternity for "spike" damage. If you're assuming other people spiking that target at the same time, you'll be hard pressed to show why ranger damage wouldn't be sufficient to bring that over the top as well, given that they are guaranteed to get their hits chained together quicker (TF > Frenzy).

Not to mention that the knockdowns are what give greater disruption effects to the R/W hammer over the bow. While Choking Gas may be a more effective disruption effect, the damage + knockdown gives the edge to the hammer ranger.

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You haven't read my posts, because I have to repeat this.

Because I didn't think those particular points worth arguing? Surely you jest.

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Dead wrong in what? You haven't addressed any of the points I made pages back. You just came into the thread, and repeated the same arguments that were already debunked pages back.

Warrantless. And incorrect.

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Cryptic? What's so cryptic about a hammer build with Judges Insight? Such a build is bloody obvious. I shouldn't have to post it up.

This seems to be a shift. If it's obvious, then you're not trying to encourage other people to think of it. Surely you can make up your mind which particular story you're trying to sell.

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What's cryptic about using Nature's Renewal to break through enchantment stacks before unloading multiple adrenaline chains? What's so cryptic about using Necro secondaries to breaks through Aegis/Guardian. Do I have to actually spell out "R I G O U R M O R T I S"?

Enchantment stacks are irrelevant. It takes one RoF or one Prot Spirit AFTER the NR to shut down your train. Which then takes you another 30-45 seconds to regenerate with a WaM up. And I've already answered the Rigor claim multiple times. Perhaps you're the one not reading my posts here.

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Do I seriously have to explain massive Energy denial from both Monks and Mesmer on one's team, to prevent casting of Protective Spirits and Aegis outright? Do I really have to explain that you unload your chains from multiple characters when OpFor is already starved for energy and you just shattered all of their existing enchants with NR?

If your claim is that with all monks and mesmers having no energy, and with multiple people attacking your target, the hammer warrior is better than the R/W, I'll just have to point out that a guy wanding in that situation would still ultimately be able to kill them. And the damage differential between the R/W and W/x would be irrelevant, since the target would die just as quickly in either situation. However, on the off-chance that your team doesn't execute massive energy denial, rigor, multiple offensive spikes and complete enchant removal all simultaneously (can I get an eye roll here?), it is much easier to nullify take your warrior out of the fight than it is to take the ranger out of the fight. And I can guarantee you that your team won't execute all of those things against a competent team.

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I shouldn't have to give details because these things should be obvious to anyone doing GvG and Tombs.

That's the point. You make claims that assume contigencies that simply will not exist against competent teams, then act as if those somehow vindicate your spurious claims. People that are "doing GvG and Tombs" know that what you're talking about is silly.

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Seriosuly, go back and read the previous pages. I already spent way more time than I liked explaining what shouldn't need to be.

I really don't feel like re-reading your previous posts when you keep illustrating how limited your understanding of what I'm saying is.

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For the obvious fear of getting countered. If I post it here, people will be watching for it, having brought the necessary counters. Nothing in the game is uncounterable, so why show your cards on an open forum? I'd rather continue to enjoy increased effectiveness in future Tombs fights for atleast a few weeks, before it becomes obvious. Is it selfish? Probably, yet I don't care. We only came to this realisation a day ago, for pete's sake. Why the hell would I mention it already?

I have no idea who you are or what guild you're in, and I assure you that I don't need to tweak anything in my team's build to counter your warrior. It's already been built in. If you're certain that your build is able to counter us, we'd be happen to accept a challenge from your guild. Who knows? You might even be right, and if you are, I'd certainly be keen to see it in action.

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I'm posting because there are some builds, strategies and ideas I am willing to share. And I've done so, in this thread and others.

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And why wouldn't I try to learn from others? Half of our builds came from taking other people's ideas and tweaking them for our own use/better effectiveness. That's the other half of the fun of the game. No, Im not contradicting myself, because it's not about being handed strategies on a silver platter, but about seing a glimpse of a brilliant idea and taking it to the next level.

The predictable response, and likewise predictably counterable. If we don't post builds and strategies, then the things we see are limited to in game battles. It can often take 20-30 minutes to get a GvG match for us, and that makes it a little hard to see lots of different ideas and builds. Many teams have the same problem, which is why posting movies, sharing concepts and talking about strategies is important to provides those "glimpses" you talk about.

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Even my "uber secret" Hammer Warrior build (come on, it's a W/Mo with Judge's Insight that needs 7 adrenaline to start a chain, should be bloody obvious) grew out of another person's build from the BWEs.

You're the one that was reticent to post your "W/Mo with Judge's Insight" build. Are you sure you're not projecting? And the fact that it grew from another person's build brings up an interesting side note: The Fianna posted their reports after each BWE, which greatly enhanced the learning curve for those not able to participate in alpha testing. In much the same way, posting insights about the game allow those who aren't able to play lots of GvG yet because of skill unlocking, inactive guilds, etc, can still benefit and help make advancements to the metagame as long as we don't keep W/Mo's with JI secret (another eye roll here).

Quote:

Hell what we discovered yesterday is a combination of two widely known strategies. Perhaps even used by somebody out there, I just never saw anyone post about using them together. In time I'll post it too. Or perhaps IQ people will post about it way before we do (I wouldn't be surprised if they already do it themselves). But right now, I ain't ready to talk yet.

Super. No one says that you have to post every thought you have as soon as you have it. But if you're going to make the claim that W/x is superior to R/W in all situations and expect people to remotely take you seriously, you'd better be ready to put up. Otherwise, you're just posturing.

Quote:

If that invalidates the rest of the extensive posts I made on the subject of Hammer W/X and how they compare to hammer R/W, or all the posts I've made about QS and Melandru's Rangers, so be it. I'm beyond caring. And I should never have started posting in this thread again. As it's a giant waste of time. So I'm bowing out again, this time for good.

We'll see. And if you do, fine. If you don't, please note that posting more insightful things in the future will be much better received.

Ubi

Ender Ward · Aug 17, 2005, 04:42 AM // 04:42

*sigh*

Just when you think you're out, they pull you back in ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

he can't even tell the 5 1/2 people that read this forum in fear of being countered.

Look at the views on this thread. Done so? Good. Would you like to edit your post now?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

I think this thread has deduced a few main things:

1: NR nerfs enchantments and hexes that may or may not be used to help warriors
2: If you are in an extremely anti-warrior environemnt, don't bring a warrior
3. If you are in an extremely anti-warrior environemnt you may not want to bring a ranger either

As I've been trying to point out since page 5:

1: NR, for a short time, takes out most of the enchantments and hexes that can be used to totally counter melee attackers.

2: When are you not in an extremely "anti-melee" environment in Tombs/GvG?

3: You may not want to bring melee attackers, specifically. Unless you have ways of breaking through that anti melee attacker environment for a short period of time.

And my additions.

4: Breaking through environments unfavourable to melee attackers cannot be done for long periods of time, which makes the "sustainability" of efficient melee attackers (like a Hammer R/Ws) irrelevant.

5: If you want sustainable, efficient DPS, there are better choices (bow rangers) than Hammer using R/Ws.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ubiquitous

Stuff ...

Standard metagame of 3 monks calls for 3 disrupting characters. Unless OpFor brought secondary monks specifically outfitted to be able to cast Protective Spirit and Shielding Hands (happens sometimes), you do not worry about it. Why? I already explained on previous pages, but I guess will have to do it again:

The reason there are 3 disruptors (W/X, R/X or Mes/X) for each of the 3 OpFor Monks is because you are attempting to disrupt the sources of Protective Spirit/S-hands casting.
This requires coordination. Drop NR. Hit all 3 monks simultaneously. If you gambled right and there are no other sources of prot-spirit or Aegis, you'll have 3 death monks in a few seconds. You can't escape Warrior primary knock lock no more than you can escape Choking Gas from interrupting even your 1/4 second spells.

Important: the warriors need co-ordinate with the 'spirit machine' to time their casting of JI to finish after NR drops, or they lose it.
If you can't pull this off, you'll lose quite a bit of damage potential on the spike. For a team without the proper co-ordination, it's better not to use JI on the warriors themselves, but to have it come from an external source (for us a Necro/Monk).

Yeah, sometimes your warriors get drained. It doesn't matter. The extra knockdown duration on a Warrior primary ensures knock lock even *without* Frenzy.

Rigour Mortis is for targets inside wards, since those cannot be removed by Nature's. You cover it right away with other hexes, so no Mesmer with singular enchant removal can get it off. There is usually nobody to remove the hex as the very same people capable of it are being disrupted. And yes, sometimes we do meet teams with monk secondaries packing convert hexes, which does screw us. Nothing is uncounterable though.

As I kept saying since page 5. The window of opportunity for the Hammer Warrior to knock lock a target is very small, and requires coordination. You can see it from all the steps I detailed that need to be taken.
Such conditions cannot be sustained beyond those few seconds, though. Too many counters. Sustainable melee isn't useful for this very reason. If the melee attacker can't kill a target during the very first knock lock adrenaline chain, which R/W cannot, then there's no use for such a character in the build. We *need* the assigned target to die. That monk cannot be allowed to get up and cover himself with Prot Spirit.

~~~

More later. Tombs game now.

~~~

Quote:

I have no idea who you are or what guild you're in, and I assure you that I don't need to tweak anything in my team's build to counter your warrior.

I thought I was being pretty clear when I said "I don't really see us using Hammer builds again anytime soon". Why are we talking about countering my warrior? The "fear of being countered" comment was about the new (to us) combination of strategies that we developed last night. It has nothing to do with my Hammer Warrior. It's common knowledge how to counter a melee attacker. It's far less simple to counter a team build that you aren't prepared for in advance.

As for that hammer warrior, I actually already posted the stats for it. It's the one some guy here (forgot the name) called "fictitious" until I posted a screenshot.

Warrior/Monk

16 Hammer Mastery (12 + 1 + 3)
10 Strength (9 + 1)
09 Smiting Prayers

Furious Hammer with 20% longer enchant duration (for JI)

Devastating Hammer
Crushing Blow
Mighty Blow
Heavy Blow
Frenzy
Judge's Insight
Irresistible Blow/Rez Signet (depends on the rest of the team)
Sprint

There, a fairly straightforward JI Hammer W/Mo based on Devastating Hammer. Meant to do one and one thing only, make sure the target doesn't get up and dies once the defenses come down for a little while.

Did I really have to post this? Aren't 50,000 other people running the same build? So why didn't I post it earlier, you ask? Because there is no point. The people advocating hammer R/Ws in this thread are looking for sustainability. Which a Hammer W/X cannot provide. Ofcourse R/W beats W/X for sustainability. But that's not what one uses a Hammer Warrior for. You use the Warrior primary for knock lock. Nothing else matters. And if you aren't using a warrior for that purpose, why didn't you bring a bow ranger instead?

The primary conflict comes from the idea that warriors, either primary or secondary are supposedly good sources of sustained damage. And I keep trying to explain for 5 pages that with all the counters out there for melee attackers, the last thing you want to bring for sustainable DPS is a Hammer Ranger/Warrior. You don't want melee attackers at all.
The only good use for melee attackers in current PvP metagame, is knock lock (which for the simple lack of Stonefist Gauntlets a R/W cannot provide). That's it. Everything else another, less easily countered class (bow ranger) can do significantly better.

Perhaps this time the point will get through. If not, I give up. And the hammer R/W admiration society can keep on posting ...

cookiehoarder · Aug 17, 2005, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Where was Holy strike? I'd drop some hammer and get 12 smiting, then bring along holy strike for the knockdown. I do like R/Ws but the only reason I'd ever take them was if I was using hammer. If you're using anything else, W/R is the way to go for Tiger's fury +16 weapon+strength.

Xellos · Aug 17, 2005, 11:38 AM // 11:38

I'd just like to say that while Frenzy has it's amazing energy conservation advantage over Tigers Fury, there are times where "hitting it on the altar" or using it "in the fray" is a nessecity. Second, I doubt most people can use frenzy effectively, as it forces you to keep very careful of yourself when facing a team that knows how to go on damage therefore keeping tabs on you. A defensive team will knock you out if your not careful. Tigers Fury allows some skirmishes that would not be possible with Frenzy, and there are rare builds which let you use TF on a warrior effectively even in GvG. It's just dependant on the guild.

Frenzy to me is a skill that has alot of drawbacks yet also pays back alot. While the iQ guys and Final Dynasty guys can give out the advantages of it, they don't fill you in on how easy it is for some people to take advantage of Frenzy. Even if you do have the skill to cautiously play frenzy when the enemy is on damage, you can't possibly expect you to have 0% error margin or that you always are one step ahead of them. Micro is actually a very high factor in this game from my experiences, and even just 1 skill like QZ or Energy Drain or Frenzy can lead to many concepts and theories which the average player wouldn't have a clue about.

IMO, Frenzy and TF both have it's place, Frenzy is more versatile, but it's a glass cannon, while TF is solid but also is very inversatile and easy to shut down. Both are amazing skills though, and should not be taken lightly.

In fact, I'll even go on a limb here and claim that even Berserker Stance has a place in this game. Sure it sucks compared to Frenzy, but it's not completely useless as Ensign says it is. Just the way the meta-game works and how warriors play will tell you that having a short cooldown is not the answer for success. On the other hand, the fact that Berserker Stance builds up adrenaline faster makes it very shady to use, since that property basically blows and misleads how you should use it even though that would mean not using it to the fullest. It's not a great skill, but you can still make do with it.

Neo-LD · Aug 17, 2005, 11:40 AM // 11:40

I think the main point they area missing, and will refuse to admit (ever) is that while a R/W has some advantage in terms of longetivity with QZ down, it doesnt matter because if you were going for longetivity you would go for a bow ranger or axe warrior instead. The gap between them is huge, not anything that a rangers wimpy non-stonefist-knocklock could ever make up for.

Also, they make points against a warrior but fail to mention how the same tactics affect a R/W. Take energy drain. Yes this is seriously damaging to a warrior. But a ranger loses the same amount of energy. Except, that for a warrior a 16 energy loss is equivilent to loses 3 Iresisatble blows. For a ranger, it is like losing 8 irresistable blows. Against a smart team a R/W will be drained as with as much priority as a warrior is. With energy attacks pretty much out of the picture (you will get a few in but not even half to how many you were using before) the ultimate deciding factor is innate damage and adrenal skills. Who has better innate damage? Who has better adrenal attacks?

Right.

Neo-LD · Aug 17, 2005, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

I'd just like to say that while Frenzy has it's amazing energy conservation advantage over Tigers Fury, there are times where "hitting it on the altar" or using it "in the fray" is a nessecity. Second, I doubt most people can use frenzy effectively, as it forces you to keep very careful of yourself when facing a team that knows how to go on damage therefore keeping tabs on you. A defensive team will knock you out if your not careful. Tigers Fury allows some skirmishes that would not be possible with Frenzy, and there are rare builds which let you use TF on a warrior effectively even in GvG. It's just dependant on the guild.

Frenzy to me is a skill that has alot of drawbacks yet also pays back alot. While the iQ guys and Final Dynasty guys can give out the advantages of it, they don't fill you in on how easy it is for some people to take advantage of Frenzy. Even if you do have the skill to cautiously play frenzy when the enemy is on damage, you can't possibly expect you to have 0% error margin or that you always are one step ahead of them. Micro is actually a very high factor in this game from my experiences, and even just 1 skill like QZ or Energy Drain or Frenzy can lead to many concepts and theories which the average player wouldn't have a clue about.

IMO, Frenzy and TF both have it's place, Frenzy is more versatile, but it's a glass cannon, while TF is solid but also is very inversatile and easy to shut down. Both are amazing skills though, and should not be taken lightly.

In fact, I'll even go on a limb here and claim that even Berserker Stance has a place in this game. Sure it sucks compared to Frenzy, but it's not completely useless as Ensign says it is. Just the way the meta-game works and how warriors play will tell you that having a short cooldown is not the answer for success. On the other hand, the fact that Berserker Stance builds up adrenaline faster makes it very shady to use, since that property basically blows and misleads how you should use it even though that would mean not using it to the fullest. It's not a great skill, but you can still make do with it.

The thing that really seals the deal for me is that you can hit sprint to cancel frenzy if your getting ganked.

Xellos · Aug 17, 2005, 11:47 AM // 11:47

R/W's main problem to me is not damage, because R/W would never be the main damager, rather the precision hitter. The main problem is how a R/W currently has 0 moves that can enable it to run well. You can say stormchaser, and I'll laugh my ass off. You can say sprint, and I'll tell you 4 seconds is a big fat difference. Point is, mobility is a huge thing for warriors, and it makes the R/W hard to use.

R/W though can make use of Great Justice better then any warrior can, which opens up a couple of new builds.

R/W Imo is iffy just like swords are, and it's hard to build around them, but with the right team build, they can be pretty fearsome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

The thing that really seals the deal for me is that you can hit sprint to cancel frenzy if your getting ganked.

So your 100% sure you can hit that sprint every time? What if you just used it? Or what if you get drained when you hit frenzy? Or what if they nuke you because damage was on you and noticed? Not every nuke is uncoordinated, and while going on damage for warriors is pretty rare, people starting to notice that stuff can easily use it to their advantage.

The point I'm trying to make across is that not everything always goes according to plan, and frenzy is more micro dependant and much more stressful as you play up the ladder to use. Now that may seem to be a lazy man's excuse, but let's face it, there are alot of times where you can't use frenzy or you can't rely on frenzy to take full effect. Sometimes you use frenzy only to realize you have to press sprint the next second. That's 10 mana right there, and in order to use frenzy again being safe, you need to wait 20 seconds for sprint to recharge. Face it, there are times, as "slim" as they may be in theory craft, that happen in combat where you will be required to fight in the heat. Having that option to fight in the heat may just give enough justification to using TF or Zerker Stance or whatever over frenzy depending on how you use it.

ICURADik · Aug 17, 2005, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

I think the main point they area missing, and will refuse to admit (ever) is that while a R/W has some advantage in terms of longetivity with QZ down, it doesnt matter because if you were going for longetivity you would go for a bow ranger or axe warrior instead. The gap between them is huge, not anything that a rangers wimpy non-stonefist-knocklock could ever make up for.

Also, they make points against a warrior but fail to mention how the same tactics affect a R/W. Take energy drain. Yes this is seriously damaging to a warrior. But a ranger loses the same amount of energy. Except, that for a warrior a 16 energy loss is equivilent to loses 3 Iresisatble blows. For a ranger, it is like losing 8 irresistable blows. Against a smart team a R/W will be drained as with as much priority as a warrior is. With energy attacks pretty much out of the picture (you will get a few in but not even half to how many you were using before) the ultimate deciding factor is innate damage and adrenal skills. Who has better innate damage? Who has better adrenal attacks?

Right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

Your not thinking logically. It's tough to keep a ranger from using skills thru energy denial when the skills all cost 2-4 energy. Even from 0 energy you can use a 10 energy skill in 4 seconds. A warrior takes 15 seconds to get enough energy.

With QZ down those times change to 7 and 20 seconds.